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  1. #1
    Mornia's Avatar
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    Auction House PVP - is it dead?

    Do you remember when you were alone in your gold making?

    Nobody understood your methods or your motivations. People whispered you asking you what you did and why you were always at the AH. They asked for advice and wondered how you had so much money. You bought and sold with impunity and you were called a goldseller because you were so rich. The markets were like the virgin snow, waiting for you to mould them into a profitable snowman.

    You had power. You could buy out all the materials for a particular item and totally control the market, selling at a hugely inflated price when your competitors gave up. You could undercut to such an extent that nobody else could make any money because you had farmers that sold mats to you at well under market prices. You posted auctions at under the price of production, just to drive others out, and when they left, you started the whole cycle again, raising prices, making profits and waiting for them to come back, only to drive them out again. You were messaged by your competitors, complaining that you lowered prices to such an extent that the market was destroyed. They told you that they would fight you and never give in. They did give in, and you made a lot of money.

    Halcyon days - nice memories, but now it's time for a reality check. Those days are over.



    Auction house PVP is dead.



    Lots of players play the AH now and blogs and forums tell them how to do it. Nobody accuses me of being a goldseller anymore. I used hear that daily. If I try to control the markets, there's always someone who has some mats in the bank to return it to an equilibrium. As soon as I raise prices, there's an incentive for others to get into the market. If I post at under the cost of production, someone will buy out my auctions and relist them at their threshold. I might as well supply them with stock.

    It's futile.

    Auction house PVP is dead.

    There are too many people playing the AH to make it viable and too many rich people to make it feel exclusive.

    One can only increase one's wealth for personal reasons and server domination is a thing of the past. I used to deliberately seek out my competitors and attempt to sabotage their markets because I wanted to be the richest on my server. I may be the richest now, but there's so many people playing the AH that I'm not sure, and even if I did know, I couldn't stop them from making money.

    Of course, there are occasions when we have some success using these methods, but they used to be the norm. AH PVP was a viable strategy and entering into direct competition with others was a good way of making money. Now, the best way to make money is to accept that you can't be in control and to share the market with others. It's not as much fun, but it's the reality of the situation.

    Unless, of course, you know different.

    Do you still engage in AH PVP? What strategies do you use? How effective are they? Is the whole idea of AH PVP dead?

    Your thoughts would be very much appreciated.
    Last edited by Mornia; November 26th, 2010 at 07:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Redem's Avatar
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    You have it completely backwards. AH PvP isn't dead, it's only just coming into the mainstream!

    How can you describe the old situation where there was no competition as being PvP, yet the new situation with plenty of competition biting at your heels to be "dead"? There can be no PvP if you're the only person playing. If we want to use WoW PvP as an analogy, previously you were simply ganking people, and now it's true PvP. Are you going to fight, or QQ and hope blizz nerfs the competition?

  3. #3
    Zoxy's Avatar
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    I say its very much alive

    I am having a great time playing PVP on the AH on the moment . There are 4 or 5 main sellers on my server at the moment and its interesting to see what they are doing and what markets they think are theirs .

    Maybe your bored of it ?

    I come from eveonline so the whole game was PVP . The market was massive and there were hundreds of people competing to sell there goods and drive out competition .

    My main ways to beat competition :

    Loss leaders : Well in retail shops do this to get you over the threshold to buy there goods but in PVP its about pushing someone out of a market because you want it . First this will lose gold as Gold is your time . But i will happily sell under my cost to push a competitor out of the market i am working on . I do this for two reasons , one so they know I am serious and show I want it and Two so they cant understand how i can do it without losing money . Hopefully they will then be scared off the market and you then push the price back up .

    Buy and relist : This can be very costly and I don't recommend it if you are low on cash . Very simply if its a pretty small market then buy it all out and relist . The risk is someon else will come along and then post some more stock on . I decide what price i want it to actually be and then post a large batch with my first AH alt at a inflated price then undercut my self on my second bank alt making there look like comptetion moving in some times i will even sell on 3 or 4 of my banking team

    There both risky but if they pull off you do very well out of itI

    Zoxy
    http://tradingwithzoxy.com/ Offering the Latest Gold making Tips and Addon Guides

    Check out My Addon Guides - Trade Skill Master Complete Guide - MySales

  4. #4
    Mornia's Avatar
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    You have it completely backwards. AH PvP isn't dead, it's only just coming into the mainstream!

    How can you describe the old situation where there was no competition as being PvP, yet the new situation with plenty of competition biting at your heels to be "dead"? There can be no PvP if you're the only person playing. If we want to use WoW PvP as an analogy, previously you were simply ganking people, and now it's true PvP. Are you going to fight, or QQ and hope blizz nerfs the competition?
    There always was competition, but it was at a level whereby one could engage in a fight that could be won. It certainly wasn't ganking as it took a concerted effort to drive a competitor out of the market.

    I never implied that I was the only person playing, in fact, I think it's apparent from my post that the strategies used in AH PVP required competitors.

    What I'm saying is that the AH has changed. It's not the wild west anymore with the rules being made by those that know what they're doing. It's turned into a capitalist economy with many entrpreneurs and as such, like in any capitalist economy, dictatorship isnt a viable option. One simply cannot control the market using force. What is needed is a subtle approach, one which still allows one to make money, but doesn't involve aggresive competition with others.

    Look at supermarkets in real life. They don't undercut each other's prices to such an extent that nobody makes money. They have no hope of totally dominating the market. They set their prices as low as they can and try to make money within a competitive situation. Sometimes they won't be the market leader, but they still profit and that's what matters. It's not about being number one, it's about maximizing profits.

    This is the current situation in the AH. Anyone who has grand ambitions to be the only big AH player on their server will quickly come unstuck. Even trying to control one market is a waste of time, and I've tried. The idea that it's somehow a new dawn in an age of AH PVP is naive - in fact what we are entering is a complex economy that is based upon the interactions of many interested parties. Nobody can control it - we can only hope to maximise our profits.
    Last edited by Mornia; November 26th, 2010 at 08:17 PM.
    "Money is not the most important thing in the world. Love is. Fortunately, I love money." - Jackie Mason

  5. #5
    Mornia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EU -Zoxy View Post
    I say its very much alive

    I am having a great time playing PVP on the AH on the moment . There are 4 or 5 main sellers on my server at the moment and its interesting to see what they are doing and what markets they think are theirs .

    Maybe your bored of it ?

    I come from eveonline so the whole game was PVP . The market was massive and there were hundreds of people competing to sell there goods and drive out competition .

    My main ways to beat competition :

    Loss leaders : Well in retail shops do this to get you over the threshold to buy there goods but in PVP its about pushing someone out of a market because you want it . First this will lose gold as Gold is your time . But i will happily sell under my cost to push a competitor out of the market i am working on . I do this for two reasons , one so they know I am serious and show I want it and Two so they cant understand how i can do it without losing money . Hopefully they will then be scared off the market and you then push the price back up .

    Buy and relist : This can be very costly and I don't recommend it if you are low on cash . Very simply if its a pretty small market then buy it all out and relist . The risk is someone else will come along and then post some more stock on . I decide what price i want it to actually be and then post a large batch with my first AH alt at a inflated price then undercut my self on my second bank alt making there look like comptetion moving in some times i will even sell on 3 or 4 of my banking team

    There both risky but if they pull off you do very well out of itI

    Zoxy
    I've addressed these points earlier in the thread.

    Loss leaders don't work. Competitors will just buy out your posts and relist them at a higher price. Try it on my server and I'll thank you for providing me with some items at a low cost.

    Buying and re-listing is also a flawed concept. You buy me out and re-list my stuff. I have a lot in stock which you didn't know about so I'll just put some more on the AH at 1s under your price. Do you buy me out again? Please do as I have lots more. Eventually you'll clear out my entire stock - I've made lots of money and you need to sell your new stock at a higher price to break even. I'll buy some more stock over the coming days from other sources, undercut you again and you are left with a headache.

    The idea of undercutting one's own auctions to make them look cheap is a classic - I've tried it and it rarely works. I'm talking about making real money here and dominating markets - not selling a couple of overpriced high value items.
    Last edited by Mornia; November 26th, 2010 at 08:11 PM.
    "Money is not the most important thing in the world. Love is. Fortunately, I love money." - Jackie Mason

  6. #6
    Aeg's Avatar
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    I had someone on my server enter the gem market a couple months ago. This player would spam in trade WTB Cardinal ruby 90g each. He then began listing at 120g his cuts regardless of the current going price. If I had a gem listed at 150g he would undercut straight to 120g. I sent him a tell to the extent of "there is money for both of us if you dont destroy the markups". His response was 'I can't see the current prices when I post, I am sorry if I am hurting your gold making'. and then he logs off. Needless to say a couple weeks of posting my gems at 92g each quickly moved him out of the market.

    I guess the point I am trying to make is AH PVP is still around, although probablty not at the levels it used to be.

  7. #7
    Mornia's Avatar
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    So why didn't he just buy your gems at 92g? He could have stocked them and resold them later! He doesn't sound like a very good AH player.
    "Money is not the most important thing in the world. Love is. Fortunately, I love money." - Jackie Mason

  8. #8
    Redem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mornia View Post
    What I'm saying is that the AH has changed. It's not the wild west anymore with the rules being made by those that know what they're doing. It's turned into a capitalist economy with many entrpreneurs and as such, like in any capitalist economy, dictatorship isnt a viable option. One simply cannot control the market using force. What is needed is a subtle approach, one which still allows one to make money, but doesn't involve aggresive competition with others.
    I don't see how this substantially counters my argument. That competition is more severe, and that there is more of it, makes it less PvP?

    It's harder to win, yes. Probably even impossible. Harder to follow the market with more players in it. Harder still to control even a single niche.

    It's still a fight, however. Competition in some markets is so fierce as to force sellers to reduce their profit to near cost. (Or less, for those silly enough to believe that mats you farm are free) This is entirely what we should expect, surely? I cannot agree that this makes AH PvP dead.

  9. #9
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    Yea My server is odd and its working .

    But i think PVP has changed and its now about processing a product Eg saronite shuffle or Abysall Shatter .

    with more people playing the AH from what I can see its about being clever with the items and making them worth more .I am currently wondering what to do with all of the cloth that keeps getting dumped on the AH . My main is a tailor and a Enchanter so i plan to shift it to Enchanting mats . Then its going to be a question of is it better to list scrolls or sell the mats .


    I think its now moved to profit rather then market domination and profit is made in these little shifts and moves .

    Zoxy
    http://tradingwithzoxy.com/ Offering the Latest Gold making Tips and Addon Guides

    Check out My Addon Guides - Trade Skill Master Complete Guide - MySales

  10. #10
    Mornia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redem View Post
    I don't see how this substantially counters my argument. That competition is more severe, and that there is more of it, makes it less PvP?

    It's harder to win, yes. Probably even impossible. Harder to follow the market with more players in it. Harder still to control even a single niche.

    It's still a fight, however. Competition in some markets is so fierce as to force sellers to reduce their profit to near cost. (Or less, for those silly enough to believe that mats you farm are free) This is entirely what we should expect, surely? I cannot agree that this makes AH PvP dead.
    It is a fight, but it's one that isn't worth engaging in. You say yourself that it's probably even impossible. If it's probably even impossible, it's dead. By dead, I mean that it's not a worthwhile use of one's time. If you want to engage in a situation that is probably impossible to win, I'll leave you to it. If someone tries the aforementioned AH PVP tactics on my server, I'll gobble them up and make money out of it.

    The fact that competition is more severe is exactly what causes AH PVP to be dead. As I said earlier, many competitors mean that PVP tactics don't work. As soon as you have a hold on a market, someone else will get involved. You can keep fighting it so that, in a sense, AH PVP still exists, but it doesn't exist in terms of controlling a market.

    Anyone can control a niche market for a short time - that's not AH PVP. Can anybody here say that they've managed to control the glyph market for a long period of time? What about the flask market? Scrolls? Gems?

    AH PVP is dead in that it's not the best way to make money anymore. Sure, you can engage in it, but why would you? You can make more money by simply co-existing.
    Last edited by Mornia; November 26th, 2010 at 09:13 PM.
    "Money is not the most important thing in the world. Love is. Fortunately, I love money." - Jackie Mason

 

 

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